WEBVTT

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ALL OF YOU, AND FOR THAT IS WHAT

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AMERICA, I BELIEVE, IS ABOUT.

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>> 37 PAST THE HOUR.

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WELCOME BACK TO "MORNING JOE."

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JOINING US VANDERBILT’S ROGER’S

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CHAIR AND THE AMERICAN

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PRESIDENCY HISTORIAN JON

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MEACHAM, AN ACLIMBED WRITER AND

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JOURNALIST, TOM RIP CURRENTS

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AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK OUT

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TOMORROW ENTITLED "FIRST

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PRINCIPLES: WHAT AMERICA’S

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FOUNDERS LEARNED FROM THE GREEKS

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AND ROMANS AND HOW THAT SHAPED

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OUR COUNTRY".

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>> THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING WITH

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US.

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TOM, THANKS SO MUCH.

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A HUGE FAN OF YOUR BOOK.

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IT WAS GREAT LATE SUMMER READING

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WHEN YOU ALL WERE KIND ENOUGH TO

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FORWARD IT TO ME.

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I WAS THINKING ABOUT YOU THIS

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WEEKEND AS I HEARD PEOPLE ON THE

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LEFT AND THE RIGHT SHOUT TO THE

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HEAVENS, MY GOD, MY GOD,

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GRIDLOCK AGAIN.

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AND I JUST THOUGHT OF THAT

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SILICON VALLEY PHRASE THAT YOU

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LIFTED AND TALKED ABOUT IN YOUR

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BOOK THAT THIS SORT OF CREEPING

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COMPROMISE, THIS INCREMENTALISM,

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IT’S NOT A BUG IN OUR SYSTEM.

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IT’S A FEATURE OF OUR SYSTEM.

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EXPLAIN.

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>> THAT’S RIGHT.

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IT IS CENTRAL TO HOW THE

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CONSTITUTION WAS LAID OUT BY, IT

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WAS MADISON, WHICH IS I AM GOING

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TO DISPERSE POWER SO WIDELY THAT

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IF YOU WANT TO MAKE PROGRESS IN

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THIS COUNTRY YOU HAVE IT FIND

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ALLIANCES, MOVING TOGETHER AND

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FIND SOMEBODY ELSE WHO SUPPORTS

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YOU EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FROM A

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DIFFERENT PART OF THE COUNTRY.

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AND SO MADISON TAKES POWER AND

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SPREAD IT ACROSS THREE BRANCHES

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OF GOVERNMENT.

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IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, TWO

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HOUSES RATHER THAN THE PREVIOUS

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SYSTEM, THE ARTICLES OF

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CONFEDERATION, WHICH IS OUT OF

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CONGRESS, AND THEN YOU HAVE

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DISPERSAL BETWEEN THE STATES AND

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THE FEDERAL SYSTEM.

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SO AMERICAN POWER IS JUST ALL

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OVER THE PLACE.

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AND YOU KIND OF SAW THAT WITH

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TRUMP.

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TRUMP TALKED A LOT BUT NOT MUCH

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HAPPENED IN THE GOVERNMENT.

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IN FACT, I THINK KIND OF THE

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TRUMP ERA WAS LIKE WE WENT BACK

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TO THE ARTICLES OF

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CONFEDERATION.

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WE HAD A BUNCH OF GOVERNORS

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TRYING TO DO THINGS AND WE HAD A

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CENTRAL GOVERNMENT THAT SEEMED

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FROZEN AND POWERLESS.

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>> SO, LET’S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK

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MORE GENERALLY.

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IT’S FASCINATING TO HAVE YOU ON

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NOW BECAUSE YOU, IN FACT,

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STARTED THIS JOURNEY OF YOURS

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FOUR YEARS AGO THE DAY AFTER THE

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ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP IN

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2016, AND DECIDED TO GO BACK TO

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THE BEGINNING AND TO FIGURE OUT

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WHAT THIS COUNTRY WAS ABOUT AND

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TO DO THAT YOU STUDIED WHAT OUR

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FOUNDERS STUDIED, BUT YOU ALSO

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EXAMINED THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN

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THEIR OWN EDUCATION AND HOW IT

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SHAPED THE LEADERS THEY BECAME

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AS THEY WERE FRAMING OUR

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CONSTITUTION AND OUR COUNTRY.

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TALK ABOUT THAT.

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>> WELL, THAT’S RIGHT.

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ON THAT MORNING, AFTER THE 2016

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PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, I WENT

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DOWNSTAIRS TO MY LIBRARY AND

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SAID, WHAT HAPPENED?

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HOW CAN I THINK ABOUT THIS?

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SO I TOOK AIRRISTOTLE’S POLITICS

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OFF THE SHELF.

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WHAT DOES ARISTOTLE SAY?

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THAT LED ME TO READING WHAT THE

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FOUNDERS READ, WHICH IS

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DIFFERENT HOW WE THINK OF GREECE

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AND ROME.

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THEY HAD A DIFFERENT GREECE AND

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ROME.

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GREECE WAS SOMEWHERE OFF IN THE

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BACKGROUND.

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THEY DIDN’T REALLY CARE ABOUT

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GREECE WITH A COUPLE OF

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EXCEPTIONS.

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THEY WERE VOERY FOCUSED ON ROMAN

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HISTORY.

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FOR EXAMPLE, THEY THOUGHT THE

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LEADING PLAYWRIGHT OF THE

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ANCIENT WORLD WAS TERRENCE.

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TERRENCE WAS A COMIC PLAYWRIGHT

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NOBODY READS TODAY.

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THEY HAD A DIFFERENT WORLD THEY

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LOOKED TO.

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WHEN THEY SAID HOW DO YOU DESIGN

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A REPUBLIC, THERE WEREN’T A LOT

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OF EXAMPLES.

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AND SO THEY LOOKED BACK

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ESPECIALLY TO ANCIENT GREECE AND

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ANCIENT ROME AND SAID WHERE DID

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THEY GO WRONG?

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FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE

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CONCLUSIONS OF HISTORIANS ABOUT

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THE ANCIENT WORLD WAS REPUBLICS

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DON’T LAST LONG.

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SO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THEY HAD

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GOING INTO THE CONSTITUTION WITH

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MADISON ESPECIALLY WAS HOW DO

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YOU MAKE A REPUBLIC LAST?

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HOW DOES IT SUSTAIN ITSELF?

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I THINK IF THEY CAME BACK TODAY

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THEY WOULD BE PLEASANTLY

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SURPRISED THAT THE MACHINE THEY

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DESIGNED IN THE 18th CENTURY IS

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STILL HERE MORE THAN 250 YEARS

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LATER, STILL WORKING, PARTLY

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BECAUSE THEY DESIGNED IT TO BE

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CHANGED, TO BE FIXED, IT BE

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AMENDED.

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AND THEY HAD A LOT OF

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AMENDMENTS.

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THE EDUCATION OF THESE GUYS WERE

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SO DIFFERENT THOUGH.

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GEORGE WASHINGTON IS AN

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UNEDUCATED MAN TO THE SHOCK OF

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THE SORT OF VOLUBLE PEOPLE

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AROUND HIM LIKE JOHN ADAMS AND

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THOMAS JEFFERSON.

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WASHINGTON IS VERY CONSCIOUS OF

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THIS, HIS LACK OF EDUCATION, BUT

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THE INTERESTING THING IS, I

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THINK HE BECOMES A REAL GOOD

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CRITICAL THINKER BECAUSE OF IT.

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HE KNOWS HE IS NOT WELL

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EDUCATED.

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HE KNOWS HE IS NOT A GOOD

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WRITER.

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SO HE FINDS THIS KID ALEXANDER

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HAMILTON, WHO IS A GREAT WRITER,

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AND GETS HIM TO DO A LOT OF THE

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WRITING FOR HIM DURING THE WAR.

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JEFFERSON IS A VERY DIFFERENT

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GUY.

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KIND OF THE OUTLIER, MORE GREEK

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THAN A ROMAN.

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MORE INTO EPICUREAN THINKING

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ABOUT HAPPINESS THAN STOWICCAL

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THINKING LIKE WASHINGTON.

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ADAMS IS THIS ALMOST A WOODY

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ALLEN-LIKE FIGURE, WEARING HIS

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HEART ON HIS SLEEVE.

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BUT I THINK ADAMS ALSO HAS BEEN

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A BIT TYPEDHYPED IN RECENT YEARS

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IT WAS A DISASTER AS A

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PRESIDENT.

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HIS MOST SIGNIFICANT ACT ACT AS

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PRESIDENT WAS PUTTING 25 JOURNAL

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IS CRITICAL OF HIM SIMPLY IN

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JAIL.

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HE JUST PUT THEM IN JAIL FOR

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BEING CRITICAL OF HIM.

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HE THOUGHT THAT WAS TANTAMOUNT

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TO TREASON.

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YOU SHOULDN’T CRITICIZE THE

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PRESIDENT.

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AND JAMES MADISON, WHO I GREW SO

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FOND OF AS I WROTE THIS BOOK.

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MADISON IS SMALL.

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HE HAS SOME FORM OF EPILEPSY, WE

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THINK.

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HE DOES NOT HAVE A GOOD SPEAKING

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VOICE.

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YET HE HAS ENORMOUS INFLUENCE

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OVER HOW THE COUNTRY IS BUILT.

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AND I THINK PLAYS AN IMPORTANT

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ROLE NOT JUST WITH THE

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CONSTITUTION, WHICH HE KIND OF

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PROPOSED, LET’S HAVE A NEW

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FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF THE LAND.

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WE GOES TO THE MEETING WITH ALL

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THESE GREEK AND ROMAN REFERENCES

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HE SPENT FOUR YEARS STUDYING OF

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HOW DO WE DESIGN A REPUBLIC, AND

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THEN HE HELPS THE POLITICS OF

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THE COUNTRY IN THE 1790s WHEN

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ADAMS IS KIND OF FREAKING OUT AS

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PRESIDENT SAYING NOBODY SHOULD

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CRITICIZE ME, THAT’S ILLEGAL.

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MADISON IS SAYING, NO, LET’S

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HAVE POLITICS.

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LET’S HAVE PARTY POLITICS.

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LET’S HAVE FACTIONS THAT COMPETE

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WITH EACH OTHER.

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BECAUSE THAT WAY POWER IS SO