WEBVTT

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>> YEAH, EXACTLY.

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>> ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, THANK YOU

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VERY MUCH FOR BEING ON THIS

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MORNING.

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>>> SO THE LATEST NBC NEWS

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NATIONAL POLL SHOWS KAMALA

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HARRIS WITH A FIVE-POINT LEAD

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OVER TRUMP, BUT WITHIN THE

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MARGIN OF ERROR.

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IT ALSO SHOWS ROOM TO GROW FOR

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THE VICE PRESIDENT’S CAMPAIGN,

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PARTICULARLY WITH THE LATINO

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COMMUNITY.

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HARRIS HAS SUPPORT FROM 54% OF

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LATINO VOTERS POLLED,

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SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER THAN THE

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SUPPORT JOE BIDEN AND HILLARY

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CLINTON RECEIVED IN THEIR

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MATCHUPS AGAINST TRUMP.

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THE RIGHTWARD SHIFT OF LATINO

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VOTERS IN RECENT YEARS IS ONE OF

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THE TOPICS DISCUSSED IN THE NEW

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BOOK ENTITLED "DEFECTORS, THE

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RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND
WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA."

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WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA."

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THE BOOK’S AUTHOR PAOLA RAMOS

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JOINS US.

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THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING

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ON.

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CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

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CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS TREND TO

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THE RIGHT BY LATINOS?

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>> I’LL START BY STATING THE

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OBVIOUS.

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THE CASE WILL NEVER BE THAT

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DONALD TRUMP WILL WIN THE LATINO

01:09.911 --> 01:10.242
VOTE.

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DEMOCRATS WILL CONTINUE TO WIN

01:11.602 --> 01:12.581
THAT VOTE.

01:12.582 --> 01:15.186
BUT I DO THINK WE HAVE TO BE

01:15.197 --> 01:17.108
ALARMED BY THE FACT THAT SOMEONE

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LIKE DONALD TRUMP CAN EVEN GET

01:19.115 --> 01:20.151
CLOSE TO 39%.

01:20.185 --> 01:22.883
YOU DIG INTO THE BATTLEGROUND

01:22.894 --> 01:25.247
STATES OF ARIZONA, YOU SEE SHE’S

01:25.282 --> 01:27.832
UP 41%, SO WE SHOULD BE ALARMED

01:27.843 --> 01:30.261
AT THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE THAT IS

01:30.272 --> 01:31.132
PROMISING MASS DEPORTATIONS,

01:31.133 --> 01:33.930
SOMEONE THAT HAS PROMISED TO BE

01:33.964 --> 01:36.551
A DICTATOR ON DAY ONE, SOMEONE

01:36.552 --> 01:37.659
THAT’S FLIRTING WITH

01:37.661 --> 01:39.092
AUTHORITARIANISM IS DOING SO

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WELL WITH LATINO VOTERS, A BLOC

01:40.945 --> 01:42.593
THAT FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS

01:42.604 --> 01:44.999
SUPPOSED TO BE THE HEART, OF THE

01:45.010 --> 01:46.608
THEORY OF CHANGE, THIS IDEA THAT

01:46.643 --> 01:49.598
LATINOS WOULD BE AT THE HEART OF

01:49.609 --> 01:50.439
THE MULTIETHNIC, MULTIRACIAL

01:50.474 --> 01:50.960
COALITION.

01:50.971 --> 01:53.346
SO THE BOOK ESSENTIALLY ATTEMPTS

01:53.357 --> 01:54.854
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT’S AT THE

01:54.865 --> 01:56.058
HEART OF THAT.

01:56.093 --> 01:58.248
WHY IS THERE A SMALL BUT GROWING

01:58.259 --> 02:00.270
GROUP OF LATINO VOTERS THAT IS

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FINDING SOMETHING ATTRACTIVE IN

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TRUMPISM, THAT IS FINDING

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SOMETHING APPEALING IN THE FAR

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RIGHT?

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THE HARD PART OF THE BOOK IS I

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REALIZED THROUGH THE JOURNEY IS

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THAT IT HAS LESS TO DO ABOUT

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TRUMPISM AND MAGA AND MORE TO DO

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WITH THE THINGS THAT ARE

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UNCOMFORTABLE TO TALK ABOUT,

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SUCH AS, THE RACIAL BAGGAGE THAT

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PART-TIME

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PEOPLE CARRY.

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IT ALSO HAS TO DO WITH SOMETHING

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JOE TALKS ABOUT ALL THE TIME,

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WHICH IS, THE POLITICAL TRAUMA.

02:29.818 --> 02:31.896
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO FLEE FROM

02:31.930 --> 02:35.422
COMMUNISM, AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN

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TO HAVE A VERY COMPLICATED

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RELATIONSHIP WITH

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AUTHORITARIANISM?

02:38.258 --> 02:40.229
ALL OF THAT TOGETHER WHEN YOU

02:40.240 --> 02:42.960
THINK OF SORT OF HOW THAT PLAYS

02:42.994 --> 02:44.807
OUT IN AMERICAN POLITICS, IT’S

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NOT BLACK OR WHITE.

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IT’S COMPLICATED.

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>> IT REALLY IS.

02:50.317 --> 02:53.134
IT’S SUCH A GREAT POINT, BECAUSE

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IF YOU’RE FLEEING FROM CUBA, IF

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YOU’RE FLEEING FROM VENEZUELA,

02:58.935 --> 03:01.080
IF YOU’RE FLEEING FROM NICARAGUA

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AND YOU HAVE ONE SIDE TALKS

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ABOUT COMMUNISTS, COMMUNISTS,

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COMMUNISTS, THEY’RE COMMUNISTS.

03:07.736 --> 03:11.536
I SAW A RICK SCOTT AD SAYING HIS

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OPPONENT IS COMMUNIST.

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EVERYBODY’S A COMMUNIST.

03:14.333 --> 03:16.732
WELL, WAIT A SECOND, THEY WANT

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TO INCREASE MARGINAL TAX RATES

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BY .2%.

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THEY’RE COMMUNISTS.

03:21.590 --> 03:23.577
THAT ACTUALLY, IF THERE’S NOT A

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PUSHBACK ON EVERYBODY IN THE

03:25.532 --> 03:27.841
DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS A COMMUNIST,

03:27.852 --> 03:30.943
IT WILL GAIN TRACTION AMONG

03:30.978 --> 03:32.926
LATINO VOTERS THAT FLED

03:32.937 --> 03:35.248
COMMUNIST COUNTRIES OR COUNTRIES

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WHERE THERE WERE DICTATORS.

03:36.999 --> 03:38.604
>> JOE, THAT’S SOMETHING THAT

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REPUBLICANS ARE REALLY GOOD AT.

03:40.183 --> 03:41.672
THEY KNOW HOW TO MANIPULATE THE

03:41.683 --> 03:42.615
MEANING OF WORDS.

03:42.626 --> 03:44.124
WE’RE AT A POINT RIGHT NOW WHERE

03:44.159 --> 03:46.127
THE VICE PRESIDENT IS BEING

03:46.138 --> 03:47.189
CALLED A COMMUNIST, WHERE

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OBAMACARE WAS CONSIDERED SOCIAL

03:49.477 --> 03:52.728
INCH, WHERE MIGRANTS AND ASYLUM

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SEEK IRERS ARE NOW CONSIDERED

03:54.559 --> 03:55.190
CRIMINALS.

03:55.201 --> 03:56.810
THAT’S SOMETHING THEY DO TIME

03:56.821 --> 03:58.003
AND TIME AGAIN.

03:58.014 --> 03:59.619
AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION, THE

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MAJORITY OF LATINOS BELIEVED

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THAT DEMOCRATS WERE MORE PRONE

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OF SORT OF TURNING INTO

04:05.262 --> 04:06.526
COMMUNIST THAN THEY BELIEVED

04:06.527 --> 04:08.476
REPUBLICANS WERE MORE PRONE TO

04:08.477 --> 04:10.178
TURN INTO A FASCIST GOVERNMENT.

04:10.189 --> 04:13.269
THAT IN AND OF ITSELF TELLS YOU

04:13.303 --> 04:15.359
SORT OF THE DEGREE IN WHICH

04:15.370 --> 04:16.975
REPUBLICANS ARE GOOD AT

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MANIPULATING AND EXPLOITING REAL

04:18.066 --> 04:18.846
POLITICAL TRAUMA.

04:18.848 --> 04:20.182
>> YOU MENTIONED THE

04:20.193 --> 04:21.656
UNCOMFORTABLE PART, TALKING

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ABOUT THE UNCOMFORTABLE PART

04:23.296 --> 04:24.655
ABOUT THE DYNAMICS OF RACE IN

04:24.688 --> 04:25.670
SOUTH AMERICA AND HERE IN THE

04:25.672 --> 04:26.169
UNITED STATES.

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COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT --

04:28.308 --> 04:30.397
YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK THAT THERE

04:30.408 --> 04:32.758
IS A VERY LARGE APPEAL AMONG

04:32.793 --> 04:34.188
HISPANIC VOTERS, THAT THEY’RE

04:34.199 --> 04:36.197
VERY ATTRACTED OR THE MAJORITY

04:36.208 --> 04:37.907
OF THEM ARE ATTRACTED TO

04:37.941 --> 04:39.001
CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

04:39.012 --> 04:42.207
I MIGHT MAKE THE IMPLICATION

04:42.208 --> 04:44.491
FROM THERE TO WHITENESS.

04:44.492 --> 04:46.729
CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

04:46.730 --> 04:47.135
THAT?

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AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT

04:49.689 --> 04:51.612
THAT NOT JUST FOR DEMOCRATS BUT

04:51.623 --> 04:53.773
FOR THOSE WHO SUPPORT DEMOCRACY

04:53.808 --> 04:55.337
AND WANT HISPANIC VOTERS IN THAT

04:55.338 --> 04:55.795
COALITION?

04:55.796 --> 04:58.848
>> SO EVEN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT

04:58.849 --> 05:00.014
TRUMP’S ANTI-IMMIGRANT RHETORIC

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OR CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM OR EVEN

05:02.680 --> 05:04.431
THE WAY HE USES ANTI-BLACKNESS,

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WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT

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TRUMPISM HAS THE ABILITY TO TAP

05:08.145 --> 05:10.519
INTO A SORT OF RACIAL AND ETHNIC

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GRIEVANCE THAT IS FAMILIAR FOR

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LATINOS.

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IT’S A VERY BRIEF HISTORY

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LESSON.
IN THE 15th CENTURY WHEN THE

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IN THE 15th CENTURY WHEN THE

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SPANISH COLONIZERS THEY INVENT A

05:26.957 --> 05:32.166
SORT OF CASTE SYSTEM.

05:32.177 --> 05:35.435
THAT GAVE PLACE TO RACIAL

05:35.446 --> 05:36.421
MISSING.

05:36.456 --> 05:39.859
IT CREATES THIS PERMISSION

05:39.860 --> 05:42.289
STRUCK FOR ALL OF US, ALL

05:42.300 --> 05:44.277
LATINOS, REGARDLESS OF RACE,

05:44.288 --> 05:48.630
BACKGROUND OR ETHNICITY, TO

05:48.665 --> 05:52.583
ALWAYS DRAW A DIRECT LINE TO

05:52.594 --> 05:55.669
WHITENESS, TO THE SPAN IB KOLISH

05:55.670 --> 05:56.215
COLONIZERS.

05:56.226 --> 05:58.793
MANY LATINOS UNDER THE GUISE OF

05:58.804 --> 06:00.333
BEING HISPANIC OPT FOR

06:00.367 --> 06:01.653
WHITENESS, PARTICULARLY IN A

06:01.664 --> 06:04.155
COUNTRY THAT HAS SUCH A DEEP AND

06:04.157 --> 06:05.656
DARK HISTORY OF ANTI-BLACKNESS.

06:05.658 --> 06:08.099
SO THAT IS WHY YOU COUPLE THIS

06:08.100 --> 06:09.692
SORT OF INTERNALIZED RACISM THAT

06:09.727 --> 06:12.425
A LOT OF US CARRY, YOU COUPLE

06:12.436 --> 06:14.251
THAT WITH THE ANTI-IMMIGRANT

06:14.285 --> 06:16.130
RHETORIC THAT IS SO VILE AND

06:16.141 --> 06:17.719
VISCERAL IN THIS COUNTRY, AND

06:17.730 --> 06:19.622
THAT TURNS INTO A GROWING NUMBER

06:19.633 --> 06:21.872
OF LATINOS WARMING UP TO THE

06:21.907 --> 06:24.151
IDEA OF MASS DEPORTATIONS

06:24.162 --> 06:25.652
BECAUSE THEY CAN OTHERIZE.

06:25.653 --> 06:29.849
THEY ARE WARMING UP TO THE IDEA

06:29.860 --> 06:31.151
OF CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

06:31.162 --> 06:33.029
50% OF LATINO EVANGELICALS

06:33.064 --> 06:34.006
BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN

06:34.008 --> 06:35.026
NATIONALISM.

06:35.037 --> 06:40.663
SO MUCH OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH A

06:40.674 --> 06:43.341
VERY BASIC IDEA THAT BECAUSE

06:43.375 --> 06:45.819
WE’RE LATINO DOES NOT MAKE US

06:45.830 --> 06:46.907
IMMUNE TO OTHERIZING.

06:46.942 --> 06:49.844
>> I KNOW YOU AND I TALK ABOUT

06:49.845 --> 06:52.255
IT ALL THE TIME, BUT THERE IS

06:52.256 --> 06:55.667
SOMETIMES, THERE IS A DIVIDE

06:55.678 --> 06:57.525
BETWEEN BLACK VOTERS AND LATINO

06:57.536 --> 06:58.026
VOTERS.

06:58.037 --> 07:01.507
THERE IS SORT OF LIKE A CHOICE.

07:01.518 --> 07:04.836
AND DEMOCRATS TALK ABOUT THIS.

07:04.871 --> 07:06.896
IF THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT WHICH

07:06.907 --> 07:09.226
DIRECTION TO GO -- SO THERE IS

07:09.237 --> 07:10.788
THIS FRICTION, AND I’M SO GLAD

07:10.789 --> 07:11.891
WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT

07:11.893 --> 07:12.270
NOW.

07:12.271 --> 07:18.548
IT’S THE SAME THING WITH SOME

07:18.559 --> 07:23.105
BLACK VOTERS, SOME LATINO VOTERS

07:23.116 --> 07:26.070
ON SOCIAL ISSUES ARE CLOSER TO

07:26.105 --> 07:26.974
REPUBLICANS.

07:26.985 --> 07:29.097
LATINO VOTERS, THERE’S A GOOD

07:29.098 --> 07:30.516
NUMBER THAT HAVE HAD PROBLEMS

07:30.527 --> 07:31.633
WITH MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

07:31.667 --> 07:34.205
I GO BACK TO 2008 WHEN BARACK

07:34.216 --> 07:36.970
OBAMA WON IN A MASSIVE

07:36.981 --> 07:38.778
LANDSLIDE, WON IN CALIFORNIA IN

07:38.789 --> 07:40.260
A MASSIVE LANDSLIDE.

07:40.261 --> 07:42.867
IT WAS BLACK VOTERS AND LATINO

07:42.878 --> 07:44.456
VOTERS THAT HELPED KILL THE

07:44.467 --> 07:46.911
MARRIAGE EQUALITY AMENDMENT THAT

07:46.945 --> 07:49.644
WAS ON CALIFORNIA’S BALLOT AT

07:49.655 --> 07:51.659
THE TIME, AND LIBERALS WERE

07:51.670 --> 07:54.892
SHOCKED AND OH MY GOD.

07:54.926 --> 07:57.215
I BRING THIS UP BECAUSE THIS IS

07:57.226 --> 07:58.933
SOMETHING THIS BACK ACTUALLY

07:58.944 --> 08:00.571
TALKS ABOUT, AND IT’S SOMETHING

08:00.572 --> 08:02.039
DEMOCRATS NEED TO CONFRONT IF

08:02.074 --> 08:03.898
THEY WANT TO HAVE A WINNING

08:03.900 --> 08:04.651
MESSAGE MOVING FORWARD.

08:04.662 --> 08:06.211
THEY HAVE TO AT LEAST RECOGNIZE

08:06.246 --> 08:07.753
THE POLITICAL REALITIES THAT A

08:07.764 --> 08:09.036
LOT OF PEOPLE DON’T WANT TO TALK

08:09.070 --> 08:09.271
ABOUT.

08:09.282 --> 08:09.970
>> NO.

08:09.981 --> 08:12.020
I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT THAT THEY

08:12.054 --> 08:13.996
RECOGNIZE THE POLITICAL

08:14.007 --> 08:16.982
REALITIES, AND I THINK PAOLA’S

08:17.016 --> 08:19.509
BOOK IS IMPORTANT TO THAT.

08:19.520 --> 08:21.667
ONE, IN SOME SEGMENTS, LARGE

08:21.678 --> 08:22.984
SEGMENTS OF THE LATINO

08:23.018 --> 08:24.686
COMMUNITY, THEY’RE VERY

08:24.687 --> 08:28.220
CONSERVATIVE IN TERMS OF THEIR

08:28.221 --> 08:29.625
RELIGION, PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES.

08:29.636 --> 08:31.956
IF YOU DON’T ADDRESS THAT,

08:31.958 --> 08:33.902
YOU’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT WE’RE

08:33.903 --> 08:35.318
CONDONING CERTAINLY BEHAVIOR.

08:35.329 --> 08:37.842
IF YOU DON’T TALK ABOUT THAT,

08:37.877 --> 08:40.013
YOU MISS THEM ALL TOGETHER.

08:40.024 --> 08:41.727
>> I GREW UP IN THE PENTECOSTAL

08:41.738 --> 08:42.200
CHURCH.

08:42.211 --> 08:43.796
I’M BAPTIST NOW, SO I UNDERSTAND

08:43.797 --> 08:44.053
THAT.

08:44.088 --> 08:45.632
YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN THE

08:45.643 --> 08:47.996
DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHICH DOESN’T

08:48.030 --> 08:49.811
UNDERSTAND THE CULTURE OF THAT.

08:49.812 --> 08:52.330
SECONDLY, YOU CAN’T LUMP IT

08:52.341 --> 08:54.784
TOGETHER, AS ALLUDED TO BLACK

08:54.786 --> 08:57.068
AND BROWN, BECAUSE THERE NEEDS

08:57.069 --> 08:58.664
TO BE MORE OUTREACH BETWEEN

08:58.666 --> 09:03.003
CERTAIN COMMUNITIES FOR

09:03.004 --> 09:04.002
POLITICAL ALLIANCES.

09:04.003 --> 09:07.622
I WAS TALKING GING ABOUT HOW MAN

09:07.633 --> 09:10.040
YEARS AGO WE PROTESTED THE NAVY

09:10.051 --> 09:12.928
BOMBERS IN PUERTO RICO.

09:12.962 --> 09:15.418
I PURPOSELY WENT BECAUSE LATINO

09:15.429 --> 09:16.942
LEADERS WERE PROTESTING A POLICE

09:16.953 --> 09:18.673
SHOOTING IN NEW YORK.

09:18.684 --> 09:22.725
I SAID I’M GOING TO PUERTO RICO

09:22.726 --> 09:24.981
TO PARTICIPATE IN A CIVIL

09:24.992 --> 09:26.499
DISOBEDIENCE AND NON-VIOLENT

09:26.533 --> 09:28.160
WITH PUERTO RICO LEADERS, AND WE

09:28.171 --> 09:28.558
DID.

09:28.592 --> 09:29.851
WE WERE ARRESTED.

09:29.862 --> 09:31.617
I GOT THE WORSE END OF THE

09:31.619 --> 09:32.156
STICK.

09:32.167 --> 09:34.070
THE PUERTO RICO LEADERS GOT 40

09:34.104 --> 09:35.249
DAYS IN JAIL.

09:35.260 --> 09:37.313
I GOT 90 DAYS IN JAIL.

09:37.324 --> 09:39.591
THE COALITION DIDN’T WORK OUT.

09:39.626 --> 09:41.649
>> BUT, REV, THAT’S WHEN YOUR

09:41.650 --> 09:43.665
DIET STARTED.

09:43.666 --> 09:47.268
COME ON, YOU HAVE SAID YOU CAME

09:47.279 --> 09:49.996
OUT TRIM AND READY TO FIGHT.

09:50.007 --> 09:51.770
>> BUT THEY DIDN’T JOIN ME IN

09:51.772 --> 09:53.219
THERE.

09:53.230 --> 09:57.093
BUT ANYWAY, I THINK WE CANNOT

09:57.094 --> 09:58.968
ASSUME BECAUSE PEOPLE LINK US

09:58.969 --> 10:00.305
TOGETHER THAT IT’S JUST THAT

10:00.339 --> 10:00.779
EASY.

10:00.790 --> 10:02.375
THAT’S WHY YOUR BOOK IS THAT

10:02.376 --> 10:02.753
IMPORTANT.

10:02.754 --> 10:03.748
>> THANK YOU, REV.

10:03.759 --> 10:04.249
THANK YOU.

10:04.260 --> 10:04.868
>> ABSOLUTELY.

10:04.902 --> 10:06.402
>> TALK ABOUT THAT.

10:06.413 --> 10:08.173
DO YOU AGREE WITH REV THERE?

10:08.174 --> 10:09.809
>> ABSOLUTELY, YEAH.

10:09.810 --> 10:12.564
I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE

10:12.599 --> 10:14.930
INTERESTING THINGS I FIND

10:14.931 --> 10:21.000
THROUGHOUT THE BOOK IN DIFFERENT

10:21.002 --> 10:23.165
CHARACTERS, I INTERVIEW THE

10:23.176 --> 10:25.055
PROUD BOYS AND INSURRECTIONISTS.

10:25.089 --> 10:27.567
THERE COMES A POINT IN THEIR

10:27.568 --> 10:29.511
JOURNEY WHERE THEY RECOGNIZE HOW

10:29.522 --> 10:31.187
TENUOUS WHITE POWER WAS.

10:31.189 --> 10:33.450
THEY LOOK BACK AND REALIZE THEY

10:33.461 --> 10:34.614
TRULY WEREN’T WELCOMED IN THOSE

10:34.625 --> 10:35.076
SPACES.

10:35.087 --> 10:38.710
IN 2020, OBVIOUSLY WHEN DONALD
TRUMP LOSES, ONE OF THE FIRST

10:38.712 --> 10:42.414
TRUMP LOSES, ONE OF THE FIRST

10:42.425 --> 10:49.839
THINGS THE PROUD BOYS DO IS

10:49.850 --> 10:52.454
DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM ENRIQUE

10:52.465 --> 10:53.174
TARIO.

10:53.209 --> 10:54.779
LATINOS NEED TO DEFINE

10:54.780 --> 10:56.676
THEMSELVES AS AMERICANS ON THEIR

10:56.687 --> 10:58.660
OWN TERMS, NOT IN TERMS OF

10:58.671 --> 10:59.525
WHITENESS OR THE DEMOCRATIC

10:59.526 --> 10:59.778
PARTY.

10:59.780 --> 11:01.139
NOW THIS IS WHY THIS MOMENT IS

11:01.140 --> 11:02.802
SO BEAUTIFUL.

11:02.813 --> 11:05.986
WE’RE SEEING A NEW REITERATION

11:06.020 --> 11:08.580
OF THE LATINO BLOC THAT IS MORE

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DIVERSE, MORE POWERFUL, AND WE

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DON’T KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE,

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AND THAT’S OKAY.

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>> THE NEW BOOK "DEFECTORS, THE

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RISE OF THE LATINO RIGHT" IS ON