WEBVTT

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>>> WE ARE JUST MONTHS AWAY FROM

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>>> WE ARE JUST MONTHS AWAY FROM

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THE FOUR-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE

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JANUARY 6.

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FOUR YEARS.

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WHICH MEANS WE’RE NOW JUST 50

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DAYS AWAY FROM THE NEXT

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PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

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AND IF YOU ARE WONDERING WHAT

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MIGHT HAPPEN IF DONALD TRUMP

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LOSES AGAIN, SPECIFICALLY WHAT

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JANUARY 6 TRUTHERS MIGHT DO IN

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RESPONSE, THE ATLANTIC’S HANNAH

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ROSEN HAS A STORY YOU SHOULD

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HEAR.

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JOINING US NOW, HOST OF RADIO

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ATLANTIC AND CO-HOST OF THE

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PODCAST, WE LIVE HERE NOW.

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HANNAH ROSEN.

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I HAVE TO SAY.

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I LISTENED TO THE WHOLE ARTICLE

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THIS MORNING, THE ATLANTIC

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OFFERED A LISTENING OPTION, AND

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I WAS JUST -- I FOUND MYSELF

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SPEECHLESS AT THE END OF IT.

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YOU REALLY TOOK ME ON A RIDE.

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AND NOT TO GIVE IT AWAY TOO

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MUCH, BUT I’LL GET THE

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EXPOSITION OUT OF THE WAY.

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YOU FOUND OUT RECENTLY,

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RELATIVELY RECENTLY THAT YOU

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WERE LIVING NEXT DOOR TO THE

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MOTHER OF ASHLI BABBITT, THE

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WIFE OF A MAN NAMED RUFFIN, WHO

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WAS THE FIRST GUY TO BE ARRESTED

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AND THEN CHARGED FOR JANUARY 6.

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AND THEN ONE OTHER WOMAN AND

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THEY ARE JANUARY 6 SYMPATHIZERS,

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THEY BECOME MARTYRS IN THE WORLD

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OF JANUARY 6 TRUTHERS.

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WHEN YOU FOUND YOURSELF AND YOUR

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PARTNER LAUREN BEFRIENDING THESE

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WOMEN, JUST GIVE ME -- WHAT WAS

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IT LIKE?

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WHAT DID YOU LEARN?

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>> IT WAS A DOUBLE RIDE.

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I MEAN ON THE ONE HAND, WE GOT

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VERY CLOSE TO HOW HISTORY GETS

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REMADE.

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WHAT IS THE JANUARY 6 TRUTHER

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MOVEMENT.

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HOW DOES IT WORK.

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WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO DEFY THESE

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PRISONS IN JAIL ARE POLITICAL

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PRINCIPLERS AND DECIDE THAT

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ASHLI BABBITT IS A MARTYR.

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SO WE GOT CLOSE TO THE POLITICS

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OF IT.

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ON THE OTHER HAND WE GOT CLOSE

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TO THE HUMAN BEINGS.

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NICK WE WHIT

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NICKI WHIT LOST HER ONLY

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DAUGHTER AND IS WRECKED BY

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GRIEF.

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SO THERE IS NO WAY OF

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RECONCILING THOSE TWO THINGS

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THAT WE GOT CLOSE TO BOTH OF

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THEM AT ONCE.

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>> YOU, IN IT, YOU DESCRIBE THE

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POD, THE JANUARY 6 POD THAT A

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LOT OF THE CONVICTS FROM JANUARY

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6 ARE PLACED TOGETHER IN, IN

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THIS D.C. JAIL.

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I WAS SO SURPRISED THAT THEY’RE

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PLACED TOGETHER.

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BECAUSE I THOUGHT ONE OF THE

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CARDINAL RULES OF PRISONS IS

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THAT YOU DON’T PUT SYMPATHIZERS

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TOGETHER BECAUSE YOU DON’T WANT

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THEM TO RADICALIZE EACH OTHER.

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AND YOU DISCOVER THAT IS WHAT IS

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HAPPENING.

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>> YOU AND ME BOTH.

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YES, THAT IS ONE OF THE MORE

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ALARMING THINGS THAT WE CAME

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UPON.

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THERE IS A SEGREGATED WING IN

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THE D.C. JAIL WHERE A LOT OF THE

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JANUARY 6 DETAINEES ARE HELD

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TOGETHER AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN

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YOU HOLD PEOPLE WITH SYMPATHETIC

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VIEWS TOGETHER, THEY’RE VIEWS

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BECOME DEEPER AND MORE RADICAL.

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WE’RE ENTERING THIS PICTURE FOUR

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YEARS ON, ASA YOU MENTIONED AND

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ONE OF PEOPLE THAT CALL OUT INTO

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A VIGIL EVERY NIGHT ARE

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REPENTANT OR FEEL STORY FOR WHAT

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THEY DID AND TALK ABOUT HOW

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JANUARY 6 WAS TERRIBLE AND IT IS

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BECOME THIS ENCLOSED BUBBLE

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OF -- OF BELIEF THAT JANUARY 6

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WAS A GLORIOUS REVOLUTION AND

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PEOPLE IN PRISON ARE UNFAIRLY IN

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PRINCIPLE AND IF YOU RECOGNIZE

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THAT LANGUAGE BECAUSE IT IS THE

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SAME LANGUAGE THAT DONALD TRUMP

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USES ABOUT HIMSELF.

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HE HAS VIRTUALLY FUSED HIS

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IDENTITY WITH THIS MOVEMENT THAT

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WE’RE TALKING ABOUT.

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>> WELL YOU TALK ABOUT ONE

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RELATIVELY YOUNG PERSON, A

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30-YEAR-OLD WHO WAS ARRESTED AND

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HAD TO GO TO JAIL FOR SOMETIME

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AND WAS A LOW LEVEL GUY.

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DIDN’T -- WAS PUT OFF BY THE

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VIOLENCE OF THAT DAY BUT STILL

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FOUND HIMSELF IN THE CAPITOL

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WITH HIS LEGGEDS UP ON A LAWMAKE

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CHAIR SMOKING A JOINT.

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BUT AFTER HE GETS OUT OF PRISON,

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HE FINDS THAT HE WANTS TO BE

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VIOLENT.

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THAT HE WANTS TO IMPRESS THE

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GUYS WHO WENT IN THERE, YOU

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KNOW, WITH THE GUNS OFF TO THE

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SIDE OR THE CACHE OF GUNS IN

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THEIR HOTEL ROOM.

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HE WANTS TO BE ONE OF THE GUYS

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THAT WAS MORE HARD CORE FROM

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JANUARY 6.

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>> YES.

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>> SO WHEN YOU’RE LOOK FORWARD

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HANNAH, AND THINKING WHAT MIGHT

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HAPPEN IF DONALD TRUMP LOSES

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AGAIN, WHAT DO THESE

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CONVERSATIONS TELL YOU ABOUT

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WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IF DONALD

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TRUMP LOSES AGAIN?

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>> WELL THE CONVERSATION I HAD

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WITH THIS PARTICULAR PERSON WAS

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QUITE ALARMING.

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I MEAN, IT IS ENTIRE EPISODE OF

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WE LIVE HERE NOW.

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WHICH IS THE PODCAST THAT TAKES

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PLACE INSIDE OF THE PATRIOT POD

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IN THE D.C. JAIL.

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AND I ASKED HIM EXPLICITLY, WHAT

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DOING TO HAPPEN ON JANUARY 6,

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2025, WHAT HAPPENS IF DONALD

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TRUMP LOSES?

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AND HE GIVES ME THE ANSWER THAT

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YOU DON’T WANT TO HEAR.

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BECAUSE IN HIS TIME IN THE

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PATRIOT POD, HE DID COME TO

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BELIEVE NOT ONLY THAT THE PEOPLE

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IN THERE WERE FIERCE, THE PEOPLE

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WHO CAME WITH GUNS, BUT THEY

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WERE HEROES OF A SORT.

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ANOTHER ERA OF FOUNDING FATHERS.

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SO THERE IS REALLY A VAL

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ORIZATION OF WHAT HAPPENS ON

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JANUARY 6 THAT HAS ONLY GOTTEN

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STRONGER OVER THE YEARS.

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>> IT IS SCARY, THIS PIECE AND I

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HAVE YET TO TART START THE

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PODCAST BECAUSE I THINK IT IS

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FASCINATING AND I’M EXCITED TO

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START IT BECAUSE DESPITE ALL OF

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THE TENSION AND THE APPREHENSION

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ABOUT THE FUTURE, YOU DO HIT ON

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SOMETHING ABOUT A WAY OUT OF

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THIS.

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SOME -- YOU GET TO REDEMPTION

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AND HOW LAUREN WAS ABLE TO

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CONNECT WITH ASHLI BABBITT’S

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MOTHER THROUGH ALL OF HER ANGER,

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THROUGH ALL OF HER SADNESS AND

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COME TO -- COME TO A PLACE OF

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RECOGNITION AND UNDERSTANDING.

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TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

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>> YES.

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THAT IS ULTIMATELY WHAT WE

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STUMBLED TOWARDS IN THIS YEAR

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LONG JOURNEY.

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I CAN’T CALL IT A KUMBAYA

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MOMENT.

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BUT WHEN YOU HAVE A NEIGHBOR WHO

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HAS LOST A CHILD AND WHO IS IN

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GRIEF AND YOU KEEP TALKING AND

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TALKING AND MAYBE SOME OF US

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HAVE HAD THIS EXPERIENCE AND YOU

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JUST CAN’T HELP IT.

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WE ARE HUMAN-TO-HUMAN AND WE

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STARTED OUT WITH ONE VIEW OF

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THIS PERSON AND WE ENDED UP WITH

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A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VIEW OF

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HER POLITICS.

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OF HER AS A PERSON.

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I MEAN, AGAIN, IT DOES NOT

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CHANGE EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD

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BUT GIVEN HOW LITTLE THE TWO

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SIDES TALKED TO EACH OTHER,

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PARTICULARLY WITH AN ISSUE AS

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DIVISIVE AS JANUARY 6, IT IS A

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TINY LITTLE MIRACLE WHAT

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HAPPENED.

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IT IS JUST SOMETHING DIFFERENT

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TO WATCH TWO PEOPLE KIND OF COME

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CLOSER TO EACH OTHER IN THIS

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WAY.

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>> THAT IS WHY IT IS A GREAT

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STORY TELLING.

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BECAUSE AGAIN YOU START OFF WITH

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ONE VIEW OF A PERSON AND BY THE

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END OF THE STORY YOU HAVE

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ANOTHER VIEW OF HER.

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I SUGGEST EVERYBODY GO OUT AND

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READ IT.

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IT IS IN THE ATLANTIC TODAY.

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AND THE ACCOMPANYING PODCAST, WE

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LIVE HERE NOW.

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HANNAH ROSEN, WISH I HAD A

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LONGER WITH YOU.