WEBVTT

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GUESS.

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>> AND, JOE, I MEAN, THANK YOU,

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CAMERON, SHE INDICTED 19 PEOPLE.

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A LOT OF THEM OBVIOUSLY IN

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TRUMP’S ORBIT, PEOPLE HE KEPT

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CLOSE, SIMILAR TO THE DOCUMENTS

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CASE, WHERE YOU HAVE THESE FOLKS

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WHO WORKED DIRECTLY WITH TRUMP

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NOW ALSO INDICTED.

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19 PEOPLE, INCLUDING MARK

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MEADOWS.

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YOU’VE KNOWN MARK MEADOWS FOR

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YEARS.

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WE KNOW A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE.

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IT IS INCREDIBLE THE LENGTHS TO

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WHICH THEIR FEALTY TO TRUMP, IT

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APPEARS TO BE ENDLESS.

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>> I’VE KNOWN MOST OF THESE --

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I’VE KNOWN MOST OF THESE PEOPLE

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FOR YEARS.

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YOU AND I HAVE KNOWN DONALD

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TRUMP FOR 25 YEARS, 20 YEARS,

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WHATEVER, SINCE HE WAS WORKING

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AT NBC ON "THE APPRENTICE."

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I’VE KNOWN MARK MEADOWS, SPENT A

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GOOD BIT OF TIME WITH HIM,

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TALKING TO HIM, COUNSELING HIM

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ABOUT THE FREEDOM CAUCUS,

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SAYING, MAN, MAKE IT -- DON’T

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MAKE IT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP OR

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CONSPIRACY THEORIES, MAKE IT

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ABOUT SMALL GOVERNMENT, MAKE IT

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ABOUT RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT,

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MAKE IT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HAVING

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THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT DO WHAT

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THEY -- ALL THESE -- ALL

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THESE -- I’M SORRY, THESE

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ISSUES, LIKE, THINGS THAT

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INVOLVE ISSUES.

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AND SAME WITH RUDY GIULIANI, YOU

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KNOW.

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WE HAD RUDY GIULIANI ON THE SHOW

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BEFORE TRUMP REALLY WAS RISING.

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HE WAS DOING HIS -- HE WAS DOING

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A HIT FOR US, DONALD TRUMP WAS
RUNNING, GIULIANI HAD YET TO GO

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RUNNING, GIULIANI HAD YET TO GO

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FULL TRUMP, AND OFF THE SET,

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GIULIANI SAID HE’S ALL OR

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NOTHING GUY.

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I GO INTO THE ROOM AND I MAKE

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DEALS WITH PEOPLE AND

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EVERYBODY’S HAPPY IF EVERYBODY

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WINS.

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DONALD TRUMP’S THE ONLY PERSON

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I’VE EVER BEEN INTO A ROOM WITH

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WHERE HE’S VERY UPSET IF ANYBODY

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ELSE WINS OTHER THAN HIM.

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IT IS ALL OR NOTHING.

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AND GIULIANI DID NOT MEAN THAT

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AS A COMPLIMENT.

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BUT YET HERE WE ARE, JOHN

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MEACHAM, ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO

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I’LL SAY WE’VE KNOWN, I’VE KNOWN

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A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM

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TO BE SMALL GOVERNMENT

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CONSERVATIVES, CHAMPIONS OF THE

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CONSTITUTION, CHAMPIONS OF THE

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LAW, CLAIMED ALL OF THESE THINGS

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AND NOW THEY HAVE SCATTERED IN

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THE WIND.

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BUT LET’S DIG A LITTLE DEEPER,

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JOHN.

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BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST THE

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TRUMPERS.

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IT IS NOT JUST PEOPLE WHO SUCKED

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UP TO DONALD TRUMP FOR FAME OR

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MONEY OR POWER.

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WHAT’S BEEN MORE DISTURBING TO

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ME SINCE THE LAST INDICTMENT HAS

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BEEN THE MAINSTREAM REPUBLICANS.

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SORT OF "THE WALL STREET

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JOURNAL" EDITORIAL PAGE

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REPUBLICANS AS WELL AS "THE WALL

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STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL PAGE

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ITSELF SINCE THE JANUARY 6th

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INDICTMENTS.

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IT SEEMS THAT SO MANY OF THESE

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ESTABLISHMENT REPUBLICANS WHO

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ARE ANTI-TRUMP REPUBLICANS ARE

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NOW DECIDING THAT THEY WANT TO

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BE ANTI, ANTI-TRUMP REPUBLICANS.

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THEY WANT TO STRIKE OUT AGAINST

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THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO

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BRING DONALD TRUMP TO JUSTICE,

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WHICH THEY WILL TELL YOU, THEY

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KNOW HE SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO

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JUSTICE.

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AND YET I DON’T KNOW, MAYBE YOU

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CAN EXPLAIN IT TO ME, BECAUSE I

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DON’T UNDERSTAND, BUT THIS --

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THIS TRIBALISM, OKAY, YEAH,

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MAYBE HE’S AN AUTOCRAT AND MAYBE

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I’VE SAID HE WANTS TO DESTROY

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AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, AND MAYBE I

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SAID THAT HE’S A WANNA-BE

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FASCIST AND MAYBE I’VE SAID THAT

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THE VERY CONSTITUTION HANGS IN

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THE BALANCE AND WHAT HE DID ON

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JANUARY 6th, SO MOST

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UNFORGIVABLE POLITICAL SIN OF

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ANY -- MAYBE I’VE SAID ALL OF

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THAT, BUT OH, MY GOD, JACK

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SMITH’S INDICTMENT, MERRICK

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GARLAND IS A MONSTER, WE REALLY

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SHOULD BE AFRAID OF, I’M SORRY,

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I WISH THERE WERE -- IT WAS A

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BETTER WORD TO USE.

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BUT IT IS -- AND I’M NOT REALLY

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SURE HOW WE MOVE FORWARD IF

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THAT’S WHAT ESTABLISHMENT

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REPUBLICANS WHO HAD BEEN

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ANTI-TRUMP, IF THAT’S NOW THEIR

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NEW POSE BECAUSE THEY’RE GETTING

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PANGS OF TRIBALISM.

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>> THAT’S THE ENTIRE QUESTION,

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RIGHT THERE.

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I CALL THEM PETER MALAR BEST

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REPUBLICANS.

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THESE ARE THE FOLKS WHO, AS YOU

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JUST SAID, THEY WANT TO MOVE ON

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FROM TRUMP, THEY TELL THEMSELVES

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THEY WERE GREAT POLICIES, AND

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THEY SORT OF GET IT, BUT THEY

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CAN’T -- THERE IS SOMETHING

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ABOUT THE PARTISAN BRAIN, THE

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PARTISAN APPETITES ANYWAY, THAT

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WON’T LET THEM SEE THAT IN A

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BINARY SYSTEM, IT MAY JUST BE

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THAT THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP MOVING

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FORWARD WITH THIS EXPERIMENT AND

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TRYING TO CREATE A MORE PERFECT

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UNION IS TO VOTE FOR THE

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DEMOCRATS.

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AND I SAY THAT NOT AS A

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REFLEXIVE PARTISAN.

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RIGHT?

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AND SO I JUST THINK, YOU PUT

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YOUR FINGER ON IT, RIGHT?

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I TALK ABOUT ARE WE UP TO THIS

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AS A DEMOCRACY, I DON’T REALLY

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MEAN THE 30%, THE 34% WHO

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APPROVED OF JOE McCARTHY EVEN

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AFTER JOE McCARTHY HAD BEEN

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CENSURED, I THINK THERE IS A

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DELTA IN THIS OF ABOUT 14 OR

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15%.

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RIGHT?

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34% OF THE COUNTRY DIDN’T GET TO

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DO ANYTHING.

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IT IS THE FACT THAT TRUMP KEEPS

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GETTING 48, 49%.

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AND THAT NUMBER, THAT GAP ARE

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THE FOLKS YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.

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I SPOKE TO SOMEONE WHOSE NAME WE

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WOULD ALL KNOW, I’LL PROTECT, IT

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WAS A PRIVATE CONVERSATION, NOT

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LONG AFTER JANUARY 6th.

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AND I SAID, SOMEWHAT CASUALLY,

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WHICH I SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN

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CASUAL ABOUT IT, I SAID, YOU

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KNOW, WHEN THEY START TRYING TO

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SACK YOUR CAPITAL, THINGS TEND

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NOT TO GO WELL.

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RIGHT?

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AND THIS PERSON, AGAIN, WHO

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WOULD BE KNOWN TO EVERYBODY,

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SAID, WELL, IF THAT WAS TRYING

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TO SACK THE CAPITAL, THEY

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WEREN’T VERY GOOD AT IT, SO I

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THINK YOU’RE OVERREACTING.

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REALLY?

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YOU THINK THE CAPITOL POLICE,

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FAMILIES WHO MOURN THE LOSS OF

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THOSE OFFICERS THINK THAT?

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YOU KNOW, REALLY?

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IS THAT -- IS THAT THE -- IS

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THAT THE LINE YOU’RE GOING TO

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DRAW?

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I WAS BEING OVERLY CLEVER, THIS

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PERSON WAS BEING, YOU KNOW,

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CONTRARIAN, BUT THAT, TO ME

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THAT’S THE WORD.

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WHY DO WE HAVE TO BE CONTRARIAN

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TO A FAULT?

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WHY IS IT THAT THE EDITORIAL

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PAGE YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT, A LOT

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OF THE FOLKS THAT WE KNOW AND

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LIKE, WHO ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE

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OF THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION, WHY

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DO THEY HAVE TO TAKE THE

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OPPOSITE SIDE SIMPLY BECAUSE

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THAT’S WHAT THEIR REFLEXIVE

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INSTINCTS TELL THEM?

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IS IT THE POINT OF THE

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COUNTRY -- IS IT THE ENTIRE

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POINT OF THE UNITED STATES THAT

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WE’RE ABLE TO THINK BEYOND OUR

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APPETITES?

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AND OUR PARTISAN DISPOSITIONS?

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AND IF WE DON’T DO THAT, WE

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AREN’T GOING TO MAKE IT.

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AND I DON’T MEAN TO BE ALARMIST

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AT ALL.

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I’VE BEEN ACCUSED BY A LOT OF

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FOLKS OF BEING TOO MUCH LIKE MR.

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ROGERS, YOU KNOW, WE’RE ALL

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GOING TO -- IT IS ALL GOING TO

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WORK OUT.

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I TEND TO THINK IT WILL.

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BUT IT ONLY WILL IF THE KIND OF

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PEOPLE YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT, THE

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REPUBLICANS THAT WE KNOW AND

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THAT WE PERSONALLY LIKE, BUT IS

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BECOMING EVER HARDER THAT

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ANYTHING RESEMBLING A POLITICAL

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CONVERSATION WITH THEM IF THOSE

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PEOPLE DON’T PUT THE

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CONSTITUTION FIRST, THEN WE MAY

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NOT MAKE IT.

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AND I’M DELIGHTED TO SAY, MIKE

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PENCE PROBABLY SAVED THE

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REPUBLIC.

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BUT I DON’T WANT TO ALWAYS HAVE

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TO COUNT ON ONE PERSON TO DO IT.